Hi everyone, here is a debate I had online via MSN Instant Messenger about 6 months ago with an evolutionist named Keith. The only modification to the debate has been to fix a few spelling errors.  I realise that a few spots will be hard to follow because of the way MSN is used, but most of it is easily followable. It kind of seems to start off in the middle of a discussion and the reason is because we had had a debate the previous day, and this debate was a continuation of it. Unfortunately I had not saved the first debate. So, here it is, enjoy and comment!

Keith says:
 Well; what I wanted to do was a bit of research from my point of view to counter/offset yours.
 I suspect you'd do the same.
 And then we could go off of those points.
 and see where we end up.
 it'll take some actual research
William says:
 Mmk
Keith says:
 Evolution being one of the main subjects
William says:
 Ok
Keith says:
 One of things I'm going to go after is Evolution not only found in Humans....but Evolution as a general theory.
William says:
 Ok
 Im finding something for you right now
Keith says:
 ok
William says:
 Just a minute
 Ok
 Now, I would like to discuss "Cave men
 "
 last time we were talking
 you said there were middle stages
Keith says:
 ah yes; neanderthal Man
William says:
 Which one are you thinking of... meaning which stage?
Keith says:
 Well; let's just start at the very beginning, first, to establish a baseline.
 Ball of Molten rock.
William says:
 Right
 Where did this ball of molten rock come from?
Keith says:
 material in the Universe.
William says:
 But where did the Universe come from?
Keith says:
 Good question, and various answers there are.
 I could tell you one thing, however, I suspect you'd shrug it off as God's work.....and by that I mean....in 7 days, "poof" it's there?
William says:
 Let's use the supposition there is no God
Keith says:
 First of all; let's decipher what "7 days" could entail.
William says:
 No, let's pretend i dont believe in God
Keith says:
 7 Days could mean many things, depending on your point of view.
William says:
 and i wont use it for now
Keith says:
 ok
William says:
 I want your theory
 How did the Universe get here?
Keith says:
 One train of thought ties into the "big bang" theory, as I suspect is where you are going.
 a finite point in the yet-to-be born Universe.
 One thing you may want to ponder, is the Universe itself.
William says:
 Correct. Am I correct in thinking that the Big Bang was an explosion?
Keith says:
 Is this the only one?
William says:
 No, no, i'm just wondering was it an explosion?
Keith says:
 It would have to be, in order for matter to expand.
William says:
 Right
 Now let's consider this
 I have a watch
 Guess how it got here?
Keith says:
 Manufacturing, and the ever increasing outsourcing of America?
William says:
 No
 I put a stick of dynamite in a box with some scrap metal, plastic, and various other things. I blew it up, and boom, there was a watch just sitting there
 I would have thought an explosion would have blown it all over the place
Keith says:
 So you could apply this to anything; a House, your dinner, etc.
William says:
 but boom! it created a watch!
 Does that make sense?
Keith says:
 OK
 run with that then.
William says:
 Explosions DESTROY
Keith says:
 but remember that a watch has no gravity of it's own
William says:
 Meaning what?
Keith says:
 Meaning the watch couldn't be assembled in such a complex manner without a force to draw in the parts.
William says:
 Ok, now an explosions pushes out.
 Now, of course, the watch cant be created without a force to draw it together
 But the big bang is an explosion, pushing out, not drawing in.
 So how can anything be created?
Keith says:
 you're still negating the force of gravity in the Universe.
 gravity collects the material neccessary for the planets and the stars to exist.
William says:
 Where did gravity come from? we have to be technical. We need to know where EVERYTHING came from if there is no infinite God to create it
Keith says:
 Have you ever read the works of Stephen Hawking?
William says:
 Nope
Keith says:
 You might want to, as he discusses these very matters.
 When the "big bang" occured....
 the force at which the Universe expanded was perfect.
William says:
 I thought WE were discussing them?
 I'm asking you
Keith says:
 Any faster, and nothing would have had a chance to form; any slower and it would have shrunken in on itself again.
 you can't discuss things at this level without reference.
William says:
 Im not saying not to use reference, i thought you were telling me to go read the works of Stephen Hawking
Keith says:
 do you know what the blackness of space is made of?
 well; you should someday, but I'm just refering to him.
William says:
 What I was about to ask you. Where did space come from?
 I mean
Keith says:
 space is actually made of of particles.
 can't remember the name off-hand.
William says:
 WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A UNIVERSE, made from NOTHING
Keith says:
 lol
 but it wasn't made from nothing
William says:
 Then there was something?
Keith says:
 Let me pose this to you.
William says:
 K
Keith says:
 There existed a Universe before this one, and Universes exist outside our own.
William says:
 Ok Well where did the universe-before-this-one come from?
Keith says:
 By best theory, the current Universe we exist in, is shaped like an hour glass.
 an hour glass shape is endemic of an explosion.
 It came from itself.
 it's one big recycled mess.
 on a scale of time that we cannot comprehend.
William says:
 By 'best theory', you say. A theory is an educated guess.
Keith says:
 God is a theory
William says:
 So we dont know our universe is a hourglass shape, we GUESS
Keith says:
 formed into a belief
William says:
 And remember, we're looking at your theory right now, not God
 We're trying to figure out how something came from nothing
Keith says:
 no; we use mathmatical calculations based on star maps created from real-time data taken from space
William says:
 because IF something came from something, that means that there was already something, implying creation
Keith says:
 the big bang itself can be considered creation.
 Let me give you a quote.
William says:
 But, but, BUT! where did the force for the big bang come from?!! we are talking about something we cant even imagine. Not even black, dark space... It's something a human cant picture. NOTHING.
Keith says:
 What we call "bodies" or physical objects, are simply stable collections of perceptions to which we give names such as "apples", "trees", and so on...........
William says:
 So nothing is real?
Keith says:
 These collections of perceptions have no existance apart from a perceiving mind.
 That was from Philosopher George Berkeley
William says:
 So in your opinion, nothing is real?
 and in PGB's?
Keith says:
 It discusses the old conundrum, "If a tree falls in the Forest, and no one hears it, does it make a sound"?
 Nope; I was merely using that quote as a way to point out how we catagorize things in existance.
William says:
 So the quote was then worthless, if you believe everything is real
 If everything is real, we're back to where we had been
 Where did everything come from?
Keith says:
 In the old days; a lightning strike meant that the "gods" were angry.  We now know that to be false.
William says:
 Right
Keith says:
 The quote isn't worthless, as your beliefs do not equal universal beliefs.
William says:
 I dont understand you
Keith says:
 Your beliefs are all perceptions you have pieced together throughout your life.
William says:
 The quote says nothing is real, correct or incorrect?
Keith says:
 That is up to you; which is the whole point.
William says:
  Well, the quote is still worthless, if it can mean either way.
 Do you believe everything around you is real, or not?
Keith says:
 Modern Philosophy 94th Edition): Forrest E. Baird and Walter Kaufmann
 if you're interested.
 I believe in what I can feel/see and touch.....to an extent.
William says:
 So, what exactly do you mean? is it real? what do you mean, believe?
Keith says:
 touch and see are seperate from feel.
 feel would tie into your belief system.
William says:
 Can you answer me? is it real or not? we cant go any further, and it would be a waste of time to do so, if nothing is real
 This would also mean it doesnt matter if i murder someone. He's not 'real'
 so big whoop?
Keith says:
 I cannot answer for you.
 That is illustrated in the society as a whole and the world we live in.
Keith says:
 You are intent on putting a label on everything; if you cannot, it makes no sense to you.
 Let's talk about perception for a minute.
 personal perception
William says:
 I want to know if i am real
 Or just-I dont know what i am if im not real :S
 And sure^^
 Personal Perception, go ahead
Keith says:
 ok....
 "and I looked, and, behold a whirlwind came out of the North, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness WAS about it, and out of the midst therof as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.....also out of the midst thereof CMAE the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; the had the likeness of man.   Continuing.....
William says:
 That's in Ezekiel, correct?
Keith says:
 "and every one had four faces and every on had four wings.  And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like a color of burnished brass.
 ....
 their appearances was like the burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of LAMPS: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
 and the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.
 Now as I behold the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures with his four faces.   The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the color of a beryl: and the four had one likeness and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.
 as for their rings they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes around about them four.
 and so on, etc....
 yes it is
 The whole point is perception.
 That passage could be taken as a first encounter.
 but not with God
William says:
 It is an interesting passage
 But i will be interested to see what you mean by it...
Keith says:
 The perception could be that it was a description of an "Alien" vessel.
 lightning coming from the coals of fire.....
 I summerized most of it, as it was long and you can read it later.
William says:
 But what has an alien got to do with it?
Keith says:
 Perception
William says:
 I'm going to go over this passage again
 Give me a minute
Keith says:
 how we perceive things we don't understand
 ok
William says:
 Ok, I just opened bible explorer and started reading from the beginning of the chapter
 Now, one of the first things is this
 "I saw visions from God"
Keith says:
 hold on...
 let me reopen my bible...
William says:
 Meaning, that this is SYMBOLIC of something
Keith says:
 ok
William says:
 What it is symbolic of, I will have to study.
 But I'm thinking that it doesnt have anything to do with perception.
 So give me a few minutes.
Keith says:
 he assumed it was visions from God.
 he percieved it.
 ok
William says:
 Oh, I see what your saying now
 This was something he percieved
Keith says:
 yes; it's HIS description of the event.
William says:
 I thought you meant that there was something hidden in those verses about perception.
 Ok
Keith says:
 no....no
William says:
 So
Keith says:
 just an example
William says:
 ?
Keith says:
 of perception
 in a book that you could reference
William says:
 Right, that's what i mean, I see what your saying.
Keith says:
 
William says:
 Now, this is either (1) a vision from God, or, (2), just a perception from his mind, correct?
Keith says:
 a vision from God, or a vision OF God?
William says:
 That would work as well
Keith says:
 ok
 and yes
William says:
 So, if it is a vision FROM God, then it has meaning, correct?
Keith says:
 it has meaning to those that believe in God, and those that also believe things like this are actually of/from God
William says:
 Right...
Keith says:
 in his PERCEPTION, yes
William says:
 If it is just a perception OF God, I.e. just a vision from his own brain, then it has no real meaning, right? Other than that he percieved something - Kind of a dream
Keith says:
 that...or it happened and his perception of whence it came is incorrect.
William says:
 Well, if it didnt come from God, it came from his brain, are we agreed?
 Or is there a third party involved?
Keith says:
 If it physically occured, but he sees it as coming from God.....
William says:
 Ok, he SEES it as coming from God, we realize that. BUT, let's just suppose that it didn't.
 Where did it come from?
 would you say his mind?
 Or a third party?
Keith says:
 Let me illustrate this better....
 I strap on a jetpack, load up a handgun, and fly into a village of indigenous people who have ZERO knowledge of anything outside their village....
William says:
 I'm going to appear offline because people keep contacting me. But I am really online, ok?
caldwellkieth@hotmail.com said (10:34 AM):
 I fly down out of the clouds; land, point my gun at one of them, fire it....and the villager falls down dead.
William says:
 Ok
Keith says:
 Their PERCEPTION of what DID occur, could be; that a god flew down from the sky pointed an iron rod at one of their buddies....thunder erupted and he lay dead.
William says:
 Right
Keith says:
 how can they fight that?
William says:
 That could be there perception
Keith says:
 you see what I'm getting at here?
William says:
 No, I fail to see what
Keith says:
 now; transfer that to the passage we are talking about
William says:
 Ok
Keith says:
 An alien vessel with spinning wheels and lights comes out of a "great cloud of fire"
William says:
 Ok, ok
 but
Keith says:
 fires of some "weapons" that look like lightning
 etc.
William says:
 this is a vision
 This isnt an actual physical occurence
Keith says:
 no; he says it's a vision.....
 now it's up to you to decide if he was awake or not.
 or is it more like Dante's visions?
William says:
 I am not familiar with Dante's visions
 Now if he was asleep, it's just (continuing the supposition that it is not from God) then it's a dream, nothing important. I have wierd dreams all the time.
 If he's awake, what would you say it was?
 Someone with a jectpack and a handgun?
Keith says:
 on a larger scale; could be
William says:
 We just have to remember that there were no jetpacks or handguns then, lol
Keith says:
 http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2803668992/tt0116629
 Not from Humans
 there's you cloud of fire
William says:
 I could do that in PS
 Easy
 would take 20 minutes
Keith says:
 huh?
William says:
 PS = Photoshop
Keith says:
 it's an image from the movie Independance Day
William says:
 Oh
Keith says:
 I'm showing you it as reference
William says:
 I thought it was supposed to be real
Keith says:
 that is what he could have seen
William says:
 Right, that's a possibility
Keith says:
 as for the "heads and four faces"
 on the "vessel"
William says:
 Not a very likely one, but, granted, a possibility
Keith says:
 even humans have been using that for centuries.
 http://citypaper.net/blogs/criticalmass/2010/03/26/fine-print-a-viking-ship-takes-to-nolibs-today-at-8-p-m/
William says:
 ?
 Whats a viking ship got to do with it?
Keith says:
 AGAIN....
 just an example of the imagery referred to in the script
 ALienship with heads of something familiar to humans on it.
William says:
 Oh
 Ok...
Keith says:
 wouldn't be very hard for an Alien race to; oh, I don't know....study us.....
 find out what our belief system is, build vessels to reflect our beliefs, and come in as THE God.
William says:
 Like I said earlier, I'm not sure what the vision is supposed to mean (again, whether its a vision or not). It could have something to do with aliens, I'm not sure, havent studied it
 However I personally dont believe in aliens
 I'm open to evidence that there are aliens, however
 So, lets sum it up
 three possibilities
 (1) Vision from God
 (2) Aliens
 (3) a Wierd dream
 Now where had this gotten us in our discussion of, is this world 'real'?
Keith says:
 Because it's ALL abouyt personal perception(s).
 about
 entire belief systems are based off of personal perceptions
William says:
 Right, so another words, the world might be real to me, but not to you?
Keith says:
 yes
William says:
 So, what would your perception be? is the world real to you?
Keith says:
 I can see if and touch it.
 therefore it exists to me.
William says:
 Ok, so yes
 Good
 I'm talking to a real person, haha
Keith says:
 I can also "feel" that there is a force that encompasses everything.
 which is my perception.
William says:
 Now, let's follow this out to it's logical conclusion
 The world is real to us, right, so, where did it come from?
 Well, we have the big bang theory
 And we have the creation theory
Keith says:
 Scientific proof that it came from a ball of molten rock
 Let me tell you my belief system
William says:
 Can you show me Empirical Evidence? I have yet to come across it
 and go ahead
Keith says:
 Well; first off, you need to do some research into scientific evidence, and do so with an open mind....not easy, I understand...
 now....
 I think that the person who designed this whole ball we live on, and the processes in which it was formed, are one.
William says:
 I have. I have read many books in the past on the subject. They have all been shot down
Keith says:
 I think that God designed everything that has taken shape.
William says:
 By creationists
 But WAIT
 God?
Keith says:
 who have their own agenda as well
William says:
 I thought that everything evolved???!?!!??
Keith says:
 you're not letting me finish
William says:
 Ok, sorry
Keith says:
 Everything that can , and has, been proven and reconstructed with science, was created by God.
 we are just understanding the physical construct at this point.
 The Big Bang happened; but it was set in motion by God.
 although their could have been numerous Big Bangs.
William says:
 So, to sum up, you believe in a God, but also believe in evolution, is that correct?
Keith says:
 in a nutshell; yes
William says:
 Ok
 So, we can agree that there is a God, which would easily explain how something came from Nothing
 So, I think we can examine evolution now
Keith says:
 easily; but not physically
 It's easy to say; it just occured.
William says:
 Right
 So lets look at evolution
 Now first off, we can forget about is everything 'real' because we both agree on that, and we also dont need to worry about how something came from nothing. So we need to find out if evolution has any emirical evidence or else if it's nonsense
 Where to begin?
Keith says:
 Start with plants
William says:
 Mmk
Keith says:
 Clear evidence that certain plants changed to suit the climate they were in.
William says:
 I believe in a certain adaptation
Keith says:
 using fossilized records, etc.
 evolution is adaptation.
William says:
 But there is a difference in evolving, and adapting
Keith says:
 not really
 you're looking into the "why" now
 why evolve?
 why adapt?
William says:
 No, I can 'adapt' to the cold weather of Iowa after living in Florida all my life, but I'm not evolving
 Keith says:
 you're oversimplifying it though
William says:
 Ok
Keith says:
 it takes eons for it to occur
 it's  not something that's going to happen a week or a century
 William says:
 Correct. Now I have not studied Botany extensively, but I can say this. If evolution occured, it occured, right, so let's look at an animal. They could not have survived throughout all the middle stages.
 Say a whale evolving into something else, a land animal.
 It's going to have to grow legs to get onto the land
 out of the water
 Now, as it's fins are dissapearing and it is starting to get little stubs of legs (taking miiiiiillllions of years)
 How is it going to get around?
 How is it going to catch and eat food?
 

The debate ended here because we both had to go ( I was in Dentist's office and it was my turn to get my teeth done  :)